In this section, Ashton explained that Steiner emphasizes the names he has attributed to the planetary epochs do correspond to what we know as the celestial bodies in our solar system, but cautions us to set aside our usual associations with these names, assuring that the relevant connections will become clear later.
Sorry, I had to miss the discussion today. Just watched the recording. I had some thoughts I wanted to share. In regard to what Lorenzo said about being able to deduce a worldview such as the one that Rudolf Steiner presents, for me points to the mission of the Age of rReason. The freedom that we are meant to attain cannot be achieved unless we are able to logically think the things that Steiner tells us about (rather than through spiritual intervention in the form of passive revelation). This, in combination with what Bruce was talking about, an inner awareness, selflessness, moral readiness of sorts is also necessary in combination with logical thinking in order to evolve things further. At the end of the discussion, I believe it was Karsten who reminded us that the way that Rudolf Steiner shares this information with us is at the same time providing us with forces that enable us to develop the organs to perceive the very things he is describing. I think of him as a man who introduced a new capacity to evolving humanity, like in other stories of great advancements in humankind, that capacity has to enter through “one” person first in order for other humans to be able to develop it. Part of that development is to love others and to want to do that, to be willing to sacrifice. Even if it takes a long time still for all humans to develop supersensible perception, we have already developed thinking to the point where, in general, anyone can logically corroborate the worldview presented in esoteric science by Rudolf Steiner, if only we have loving hearts and open minds to do so. The path to knowledge of higher worlds involves both developed thinking and a developed moral sense. Hope to be with you all again next week.
Angus asked how we process the knowledge and imagination that Steiner is putting forth in this chapter on the early evolution of the Earth and the human being. He showed us a graphic that he used to depict the different layers and steps that are described in this part of the chapter as one way to make Steiner’s words more clear and visual. Lorenzo took up the idea that we could arrive at the same imaginations without supersensible knowledge and instead, as Laura also puts above, logically infer and corroborate these facts.
I would like to comment on this theme by sharing my own impressions of how I approach and process this. And I will do this by broadening the scope a little bit from the topic that we discussed in this part of the chapter.
My first, and maybe still strongest, interest in anthroposophy was the study of nature through Goethean phenomenology, combining scientific and artistic methods to understand nature more deeply. I had the chance to practice this methodology while studying biodynamics many years ago. Through practice and study I gradually came to understand some of the basic concepts that Rudolf Steiner uses to describe our present world and actually experience them as percepts in the world outside of me.
I also became acquainted with many ideas regarding the constitution of Soul and Spirit in the human being. Through biographical work, meditation and introspection, group study, work in social therapy, and other contexts I could verify many of these ideas in my own inner experience of being a human endowed with an I.
I also took up the study of Steiner’s philosophical work—something that has intensified with our group—and began to try and understand not only the epistemological grounds of anthroposophy but also his descriptions of the evolution of consciousness and the Universe at large, both materially and spiritually. Some of these ideas I have found correspondence in my own experience while others, such as the states of consciousness in classical antiquity or the descriptions of the early stages of the Earth that we are now studying, feel foreign to me. They are foreign to me in the sense that I cannot personally experience them and they do not fit within the worldview I have acquired up until now. Nonetheless I do invite myself to approach and relate to them.
Steiner comments in this chapter (pp. 121–122) that the earlier conditions of the human being and the Earth persist in the present time. ”… beside the alive and waking man of Earth [are present] the corpse, the man asleep, and the dreaming man. … clear and objective contemplation will behold in them the corresponding stages.”
I interpret this as by looking carefully and deeply—with Goethean eyes and minds—into the reality we find ourselves in now, we are able to discern those principles and phenomena that have governed the evolution of the human being and the Earth before us, since the stage of Saturn. By looking into the present, space and time broadens itself.
This would be a different approach than acquiring clairvoyant knowledge of those stages but would still require some form of supersensible knowledge. I would not be able to ’see’ into the distant past through what is known as the Akashic record, which I interpret as a capability of clairvoyance. Instead I would need to look for the traces and clues of that distant path in the phenomena I can observe and experience inside and outside of me in the world I live in now.
For example, I could try and study plant life and discern at which stage a warmth-body forms and gives rise to the formation of a seedling. I could then follow that formation and, in my imagination, trace parallels to the stages of evolution that Steiner describes for the human being or the Earth. Through careful examination I would thus be able to substantiate those facts with phenomena that are readily available for me.
This may not provide a ’scientific’ proof of the evolution of the world according to Steiner, but at the very least, it allows me to connect with it experientially. Steiner is very clear that his descriptions are only a tentative semblance of what supersensible knowledge can actually ’see’, so a proof is probably not what we are reaching for anyway. But it may allow me to align my present self with the past as well as with the future in a meaningful way.
We do not necessarily need to follow the same steps as I have aligned them above to approach these themes of World and Human Evolution. However, I would argue that using the Goethean method to contemplate nature, soul, spirit and world draws us closer to these seemingly distant worlds.
Thanks , I agree that in analogy with the processes visible for us, like plants, minerals, animals, humans, planets, etc, we could imagine the rough outlines of pre earthly planet evolution. I guess that is also how Lorenzo means we could arrive at this evolution, with the help of logic. The weakness of an analogy is that the outline of the process may be correctly imagined, but that the details are wrong. If we would use the analogy with a plant to imagine human evolution on earth, we would partially be right, but miss a lot. The same for analogies leading to pre earthly planet states. I would say that the amount of detail Steiner gives about these cannot be reached by analogies and logic. There is just too much detail that cannot be traced back to processes visible to us. If we would only use analogies and logic, it would be like describing a human while we only have a plant as example.
Rick, I agree with you, of course. You gave a similar example a few weeks ago I recall.
The question for me is, what is our intention and purpose in acquiring this knowledge of distant stages of evolution? Few of us will probably follow the path of clairvoyance, and fewer even succeed. At least in our present state. So the details and the facts will be accessible only to those who actually pursue that path and have the ability to develop those cognitive abilities. On the other hand, blind faith does not seem to be an option either.
What I feel we can do is to try and realize that evolution is a process that repeats itself in cycles and is continuously present in every birthing of a new phenomena. If we can see this clearly in our present time and world, then we might trust that those same processes have occurred in similar fashion in a distant past and will continue to occur in a distant future. With that faith we might, hopefully, align ourselves with the powers and forces that rule our Universe and strive for a more constructive and co-creative presence on this planet.
In spite of Steiner claiming to scientific truth about his clairvoyant research—which I don’t argue against— at best I (can only) see it as myth. A myth filled with meaningful imaginations that have the capacity to shape and direct us towards a more holistic relationship with all of life.
I like the idea of a myth. Steiner said that we can see his clairvoyance visions as stories told by someone who visited a far away land, that is unknown to us. We can learn from these stories and also prepare ourselves in case we want to travel to these countries ourselves. Depending on the trust we have in the person telling these stories, we can believe it or not. You can call it blind faith, I would say trust and believe. That is actually also where religion comes in. Our thinking will always be limited so in my view we need religion to help us where thinking fails. In religious practice we believe and have faith. We can also believe and have faith in Steiners stories. Also, by learning about processes unknown /invisible to us, and turning the analogy around, seeing ourselves, or earth evolution, in analogy with the pre earthly evolution, we can discover new things about ourselves.
Yes, I think that is an important way to see it. Knowledge does not only depend on data and facts. There are other sources of knowledge that can lead to us to experience something that thus becomes valid and thereby verifiable.
Myth, religion, poetry... there are many ways to communicate that kind of knowledge.
Do you know to what extent the Theosophists wrote about the planetary evolution like we read in this chapters from Steiners book? Steiner must have been aware of that. There seems to be a partial overlap, see for example
“Each chain consists of seven globes, and both globes and chains observe the rule of descending into matter and then rising out of it again. In order to make this comprehensible let us take as an example the chain to which our Earth belongs. At the present time it is in its fourth or most material incarnation, and therefore three of its globes belong to the physical world, two to the astral world, and two to the lower part of the mental world. The wave of divine Life passes in succession from globe to globe of this chain, beginning with one of the highest, descending gradually to the lowest and then climbing again to the same level as that at which it began.“
The Theosophist books are extensive, I hope someone made a comparative study?
Given that the first edition of Occult Science was in 1909 I guess that much of Steiner’s thought, as well as the public he addressed, was still heavily influenced by him having a leading role in the Theosophical Society.
A comparative study, with overlaps as well as point of departure, would definitely be interesting.
Sorry, I had to miss the discussion today. Just watched the recording. I had some thoughts I wanted to share. In regard to what Lorenzo said about being able to deduce a worldview such as the one that Rudolf Steiner presents, for me points to the mission of the Age of rReason. The freedom that we are meant to attain cannot be achieved unless we are able to logically think the things that Steiner tells us about (rather than through spiritual intervention in the form of passive revelation). This, in combination with what Bruce was talking about, an inner awareness, selflessness, moral readiness of sorts is also necessary in combination with logical thinking in order to evolve things further. At the end of the discussion, I believe it was Karsten who reminded us that the way that Rudolf Steiner shares this information with us is at the same time providing us with forces that enable us to develop the organs to perceive the very things he is describing. I think of him as a man who introduced a new capacity to evolving humanity, like in other stories of great advancements in humankind, that capacity has to enter through “one” person first in order for other humans to be able to develop it. Part of that development is to love others and to want to do that, to be willing to sacrifice. Even if it takes a long time still for all humans to develop supersensible perception, we have already developed thinking to the point where, in general, anyone can logically corroborate the worldview presented in esoteric science by Rudolf Steiner, if only we have loving hearts and open minds to do so. The path to knowledge of higher worlds involves both developed thinking and a developed moral sense. Hope to be with you all again next week.
Angus asked how we process the knowledge and imagination that Steiner is putting forth in this chapter on the early evolution of the Earth and the human being. He showed us a graphic that he used to depict the different layers and steps that are described in this part of the chapter as one way to make Steiner’s words more clear and visual. Lorenzo took up the idea that we could arrive at the same imaginations without supersensible knowledge and instead, as Laura also puts above, logically infer and corroborate these facts.
I would like to comment on this theme by sharing my own impressions of how I approach and process this. And I will do this by broadening the scope a little bit from the topic that we discussed in this part of the chapter.
My first, and maybe still strongest, interest in anthroposophy was the study of nature through Goethean phenomenology, combining scientific and artistic methods to understand nature more deeply. I had the chance to practice this methodology while studying biodynamics many years ago. Through practice and study I gradually came to understand some of the basic concepts that Rudolf Steiner uses to describe our present world and actually experience them as percepts in the world outside of me.
I also became acquainted with many ideas regarding the constitution of Soul and Spirit in the human being. Through biographical work, meditation and introspection, group study, work in social therapy, and other contexts I could verify many of these ideas in my own inner experience of being a human endowed with an I.
I also took up the study of Steiner’s philosophical work—something that has intensified with our group—and began to try and understand not only the epistemological grounds of anthroposophy but also his descriptions of the evolution of consciousness and the Universe at large, both materially and spiritually. Some of these ideas I have found correspondence in my own experience while others, such as the states of consciousness in classical antiquity or the descriptions of the early stages of the Earth that we are now studying, feel foreign to me. They are foreign to me in the sense that I cannot personally experience them and they do not fit within the worldview I have acquired up until now. Nonetheless I do invite myself to approach and relate to them.
Steiner comments in this chapter (pp. 121–122) that the earlier conditions of the human being and the Earth persist in the present time. ”… beside the alive and waking man of Earth [are present] the corpse, the man asleep, and the dreaming man. … clear and objective contemplation will behold in them the corresponding stages.”
I interpret this as by looking carefully and deeply—with Goethean eyes and minds—into the reality we find ourselves in now, we are able to discern those principles and phenomena that have governed the evolution of the human being and the Earth before us, since the stage of Saturn. By looking into the present, space and time broadens itself.
This would be a different approach than acquiring clairvoyant knowledge of those stages but would still require some form of supersensible knowledge. I would not be able to ’see’ into the distant past through what is known as the Akashic record, which I interpret as a capability of clairvoyance. Instead I would need to look for the traces and clues of that distant path in the phenomena I can observe and experience inside and outside of me in the world I live in now.
For example, I could try and study plant life and discern at which stage a warmth-body forms and gives rise to the formation of a seedling. I could then follow that formation and, in my imagination, trace parallels to the stages of evolution that Steiner describes for the human being or the Earth. Through careful examination I would thus be able to substantiate those facts with phenomena that are readily available for me.
This may not provide a ’scientific’ proof of the evolution of the world according to Steiner, but at the very least, it allows me to connect with it experientially. Steiner is very clear that his descriptions are only a tentative semblance of what supersensible knowledge can actually ’see’, so a proof is probably not what we are reaching for anyway. But it may allow me to align my present self with the past as well as with the future in a meaningful way.
We do not necessarily need to follow the same steps as I have aligned them above to approach these themes of World and Human Evolution. However, I would argue that using the Goethean method to contemplate nature, soul, spirit and world draws us closer to these seemingly distant worlds.
Thanks , I agree that in analogy with the processes visible for us, like plants, minerals, animals, humans, planets, etc, we could imagine the rough outlines of pre earthly planet evolution. I guess that is also how Lorenzo means we could arrive at this evolution, with the help of logic. The weakness of an analogy is that the outline of the process may be correctly imagined, but that the details are wrong. If we would use the analogy with a plant to imagine human evolution on earth, we would partially be right, but miss a lot. The same for analogies leading to pre earthly planet states. I would say that the amount of detail Steiner gives about these cannot be reached by analogies and logic. There is just too much detail that cannot be traced back to processes visible to us. If we would only use analogies and logic, it would be like describing a human while we only have a plant as example.
Rick, I agree with you, of course. You gave a similar example a few weeks ago I recall.
The question for me is, what is our intention and purpose in acquiring this knowledge of distant stages of evolution? Few of us will probably follow the path of clairvoyance, and fewer even succeed. At least in our present state. So the details and the facts will be accessible only to those who actually pursue that path and have the ability to develop those cognitive abilities. On the other hand, blind faith does not seem to be an option either.
What I feel we can do is to try and realize that evolution is a process that repeats itself in cycles and is continuously present in every birthing of a new phenomena. If we can see this clearly in our present time and world, then we might trust that those same processes have occurred in similar fashion in a distant past and will continue to occur in a distant future. With that faith we might, hopefully, align ourselves with the powers and forces that rule our Universe and strive for a more constructive and co-creative presence on this planet.
In spite of Steiner claiming to scientific truth about his clairvoyant research—which I don’t argue against— at best I (can only) see it as myth. A myth filled with meaningful imaginations that have the capacity to shape and direct us towards a more holistic relationship with all of life.
I like the idea of a myth. Steiner said that we can see his clairvoyance visions as stories told by someone who visited a far away land, that is unknown to us. We can learn from these stories and also prepare ourselves in case we want to travel to these countries ourselves. Depending on the trust we have in the person telling these stories, we can believe it or not. You can call it blind faith, I would say trust and believe. That is actually also where religion comes in. Our thinking will always be limited so in my view we need religion to help us where thinking fails. In religious practice we believe and have faith. We can also believe and have faith in Steiners stories. Also, by learning about processes unknown /invisible to us, and turning the analogy around, seeing ourselves, or earth evolution, in analogy with the pre earthly evolution, we can discover new things about ourselves.
Yes, I think that is an important way to see it. Knowledge does not only depend on data and facts. There are other sources of knowledge that can lead to us to experience something that thus becomes valid and thereby verifiable.
Myth, religion, poetry... there are many ways to communicate that kind of knowledge.
Angus, All,
Do you know to what extent the Theosophists wrote about the planetary evolution like we read in this chapters from Steiners book? Steiner must have been aware of that. There seems to be a partial overlap, see for example
https://sacred-texts.com/the/tot/chap09.htm
“Each chain consists of seven globes, and both globes and chains observe the rule of descending into matter and then rising out of it again. In order to make this comprehensible let us take as an example the chain to which our Earth belongs. At the present time it is in its fourth or most material incarnation, and therefore three of its globes belong to the physical world, two to the astral world, and two to the lower part of the mental world. The wave of divine Life passes in succession from globe to globe of this chain, beginning with one of the highest, descending gradually to the lowest and then climbing again to the same level as that at which it began.“
The Theosophist books are extensive, I hope someone made a comparative study?
Given that the first edition of Occult Science was in 1909 I guess that much of Steiner’s thought, as well as the public he addressed, was still heavily influenced by him having a leading role in the Theosophical Society.
A comparative study, with overlaps as well as point of departure, would definitely be interesting.